Preview: Designing with Mock-Up Patterns & Prototypes, A Motor Mount for a Caledonia Yawl

59 Responses So Far to “Designing with Mock-Up Patterns & Prototypes, A Motor Mount for a Caledonia Yawl”

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  Mark Rhynold says:

  I am building a Caledonia Yawl, couldn’t help noticing the vertical gudgeons, wondering where I can buy those.
  PS love the site!!

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  Kenneth Purdy says:

  Very nice, how much does the battery weigh, how long will it run, and where did you mount it?

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  Richard Mau says:

  I’m having a Jimmy Skiff 11 built And the EP Carry is very intriguing. However it’s pricy and might be a little shy on power. Otherwise it’s tempting. Currently I’m strongly considering a Suzuki 2’5 as it seems to offer the most bang for the buck.

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  Lou Volpe says:

  Once again not only a very enjoyable video but also extremely informative. Good job Steve!

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  Scott Hauser says:

  I think you got attached to attaching the the mount to the boomkin, and then widened out the hole so it wouldn’t be attached. What about just moving the mount down so you wouldn’t have to have a notch in the mount. As it is, there’s a lot of weak cross grain in the mount. We had a situation like that where there were waves and the prop lifted out of the water, whined, and came back into the water with extra thrust and busted the cross grain mount off. Had to grapple for the motor. Got it back, though.

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    Scott Hauser says:

    Old Granddad’s was involved.

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    Steve Stone says:

    Hi Scott. All good thoughts. A key factor in height was getting the motor in the right place when it is lifted up out of the water and set on the rail. It wasn’t mentioned specifically, but that was a key part of the decision process. Couldn’t have gone any lower partly because of that. The grain there isn’t cross-grain and it’s mahogany, so should be way more than enough for such a little motor. We’ll see, and it’s always lashed off on the rail just in case.

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  Dan Walker says:

  Truly enjoyed the recent Caledonia Yawl focused videos. Our CY has a port side motor mount fashioned from laminated marine ply, bolted thru the top strake, about 3′ fwd of the stern. The 2.5 long shaft Yamaha is a bit noisy but has been great when needed.
  Future CY video requests:
  Setting up, Launching and Recovering: my wife and I have to launch at popular ramps. Lots of powerboat and parking spot competition. Takes us 20-30 mins to set up/launch. Curious about your experience.

  Sailing the CY: General tips about sailing in 5-10 knot winds, setting sail, tacking, jibing, rudder and centreboard settings, when and how to reef. We’ve been sailing our CY for three summers but started with a dinghy sailing course and have been out a few times with more serious sailing friends.

  Once again, many thanks for the wonderfully produced and very educational videos.

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  David Lea says:

  Thanks to all for a very informative discussion.
  I recently bought ‘Albannach’, a half decked Ness Yawl which was built for Charles-Henri and which Iain Oughtred owned for a time. I have a Torqeedo Travel hung off a bracket on the aft starboard side. I find it cumbersome to lift out and in and storage is very inconvenient; so I’m considering whether to replace it with an EP Carry.
  I guess the Ness Yawl has a more easily driven hull than the Caledonian and would be even more suitable for an EP Carry?
  Does anyone have any thoughts/experience on this?
  I sail from Porthmadog in North Wales, a very tidal estuary with strong currents at times. I like to sail rather than motor whenever it is possible, but we do often get wind and tide straight on the nose in a narrow channel!

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    Steve Stone says:

    My two cents David. Check the thrust of the EP Carry vs. the Torqueedo vs. what you need for your conditions. There will come a combined velocity of wind and current that each motor won’t overcome. I suspect that number/capability is higher for the Torqueedo, so that’s a factor. I have gone head into a 2 knt current and about a 5 to 7 kt wind just fine fully loaded for camp cruising in the CY, but of course the full throttle time range of 1 hour provide less distance range under those conditions vs. flat calm. A second battery may be something to consider. I have been VERY happy with the placement of our motor mount, and it provides easy resting place (just over the rail) for the motor when pulled up and not in use. The included lock allows us to leave the motor in that position most of the time, but our area is unusual for it’s safety and lack of theft. Perhaps my favorite feature is the super easy/quick flip up of the motor when coming to shore and quick drop in
    getting away from shore.

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  Erick Singleman says:

  Nice job Eric. Good tip about the hauling of metals.

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  Tony Simmonds says:

  I am full of admiration–for the process, the end result, and the video. Thank you.
  Two comments. First, how long would it have taken, and how successful would it have been to accomplish this design with 3D modelling on a computer? I ask that (rhetorically) as one who spends too much of his time solving design problems with 3D modelling on a computer.
  Second, a cautionary tale, which might be titled ‘Never Confuse a Prototype for the Real Thing’. I did just that, having modelled a bracket to mount a Seagull motor to the transom of my Folkboat, and having cut out the prototype for the aluminium (or stainless, or bronze) Real Thing in whatever convenient wood or wood composite material I had at hand. After attaching it to the transom, and successfully mounting the motor–with at least twice the number of hands required for the EP Carry (and without a tether…)–I thought, Why not just motor across the harbour? The motor started first pull, as if it felt the same way. When I put it in gear, the wood or wood composite showed exactly how it felt about the idea, in true prototypical form parting instantly along any convenient grain, and consigning the Seagull to the bottom of the harbour.
  Ah well, good riddance, really. As the good folks at EP Carry say, it’s time for electricity.

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    Mick Duprez says:

    If you can do a reasonable mock up of the boat shell and stern stem I definitely think you would get to the ‘best’ first prototype a lot sooner for sure. As you are aware, once you have parts positioned in the 3D model, making them larger/smaller etc is a breeze :)

    I use to do 3D engineering drawings for retro fitting buildings, platforms, machinery etc in places like a steel works, nothing was ever ‘as drawn’ originally. One thing you need to do when retro fitting from CAD model to actual object in these cases is come up with some kind of ‘interface’ that is bolted to the existing object with say slotted/larger holes to bolt the new piece to, if that is not an acceptable final product you at least have a very accurate template after unbolting the interface from off the existing object with the new piece intact to work with to make a ‘one piece’ item.
    I hope that made sense :)

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  Jim Kramer says:

  ditto Donald Sullivan, July 16.
  Now if there was some way of skirting the Florida registration requirements.
  I love this website.
  Jim

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  Mike LaVecchia says:

  Love the thought process and end result. Beautiful.

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  Julian Kuffler says:

  Very nicely done.
  Messing around with boats.

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  Todd Waffner says:

  One other advantage of the more centered mount is that it likely stays in the water at all times- when you move around the boat. I installed a side mount and the prop occasionally comes out of the water when its wavy and I’m on the opposite side of the boat (making the boat heel).

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    Steve Stone says:

    Very good point, Todd. When I’m solo on the boat and go up to the bow, I do hear the sound of the prop change slightly as it’s getting near the waterline, but it appears to stay in the water.

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  Martin (Marty) Casey says:

  Very nice video. All your videos are beautiful in quality and content. As boat owners and enthusiasts we are blessed to have such a knowledgeable recource as OCH and the folks putting their time and effort into it. Thank you!
  The outboard bracket video was very timely for me. As a recent CY builder I have already fabricated my bracket to suspend from the port gunwale adjacent to the aft thwart. However I was within a few clicks of ordering another brand motor when I saw the video. When will the discount becoming available?

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    Steve Stone says:

    Hi Martin. We are hoping the discounted offer will be within two to four weeks. EP Carry had a flood of new orders just as supply lines backed up a bit from Covid, so we’re letting them get back in position to ship quickly. Be sure to read my comments about the motor’s strong points and limitations and my intended use. i.e. The first three times out I used the “quick pull up feature” and it brilliantly saved clusters by missing submerged lines and rocks … just pull up and set back down with hardly an effort underway. Yet, if you need longer run times or more horsepower then study all available models to make sure you get what you need for your intended use.

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  Marc LaFrance says:

  Great video Steve and Eric! Problem solving and thinking outside the box are such rare skills these days. Speaking of the box, the motor well box, that Ian has designed into the CY. It seems quite practical, minimalist, and functional with or without a motor. I am curious to hear why you would not go that route.

  I have been debating as to adding the designed motor well to my CY build. If I do, I would run a fishing trolling motor in it which would/could accomplish the same goal.

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    Steve Stone says:

    The well is a good option. It has several advantages. It also takes up extra interior room, does not allow kick up of the motor if shaft/prop hits rock, and adds cost/complexity.

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      Terry Finley says:

      I would also add from my experience,
      If you sail the boat with the motor in place on the well, or just with the well open, a considerable amount of water will come, splash, into the boat! I wanted to leave the motor in place and ready to go, as a safety precaution or backup plan. The water boils up into the boat. When you are using the motor, the draw of the prop keeps the water level down and it works as it was intended to.
      Of course, if you sail with the motor in the well, it also causes drag, and the prop spins making an annoying sound as well!

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  Patrick Daniels says:

  Pretty slick! Curious about Oughtred’s thoughts…

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  richard wood says:

  Great video. I really enjoyed following you through the design process and it’s got me thinking about an alternative to the motor well on my Beachcomber Alpha dory. THANKS for the inspiration!

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  Jim Kingsbury says:

  I wonder if the portside of the quadrant arm has enough space to fashion a mount for the motor. I hesitate to suggest this because it could be quite obvious seeing the area does not have enough space etc for what I’m visualizing. BUT is it possible to secure a 2×6″ on the aft
  side of the quadrant say 6″ vertically with a bronze support bracket bent + or – 90 degrees to offset the torque of the motor? If so one could steer using the tiller and the thrust would be more direct.

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    Steve Stone says:

    Thanks Jim. In the end there were several reasons not to mount the motor on the tiller arm, including height of the motor and thus the prop not reaching depth in the water, and most importantly the motor can (and will be) run much without the rudder in place. It does a nice job steering when needed and often when cruising it’s nice to just motor a bit without having to mount the rudder. Finally, one of the nice features of this motor is easily lifting it up for stowage over the rail, securing it there as needed (still mounted, but tucked away/secured). We can’t do that if it’s attached to the tiller arm/rudder, because once pulled up and secured it would render the rudder inoperable.

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      Jim Kingsbury says:

      Thank you Steve for your reply. This should be a reminder for me to always look before I guess.

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  Douglas Klaucke says:

  What a great video! It’s so interesting, and useful, to get a glimpse of Eric’s thought processes as he goes from defining the challenge to developing the final solution. I have a CY that came with a motor well, and I was about to buy a Toqueedo for it, but now see that I have another option. I was wondering though, as I saw Steve gliding off into the sunset, whether you feel the motor would be strong enough to push the boat when it has a full crew of 4-5 persons? Thanks again, for this (and other) great videos.

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    Steve Stone says:

    Here’s a real-world (not technical) answer for those asking if the EP Carry is “enough” motor for the Caledonia Yawl. It’s fair to say that this depends upon how you intend to use the motor and what competitor’s motors offer relative to your specific needs.

    My intended use is only to provide enough power to get me a relatively short distance in calm conditions in a pinch when beach cruising. If there is wind, and thus chop, I intend to be sailing. So big factors for me are stowage space, weight, ease of handling and the easy flip-up feature when beaching on rocky shorelines.

    I specifically don’t want an engine that I can use without limitations because I don’t want my habits aboard to change into motoring everywhere because it’s easier to push a button than raise the sail. If that were my objective, I might go with a small gas or propane motor or a more powerful electric motor with a bigger/heavier battery. The EP Carry was designed for inflatable dinghies and very small craft. There are other motors (i.e. Torqueedo) that provide more power and thus longer range at lower throttle setting).

    I suspect that the efficient hull form of the Caledonia, despite its extra weight, has the same drag through the water (or less!) as an inflatable, and once underway may take less energy to keep moving than an inflatable which is designed to be pushed by a much higher hp gas motor. I suspect that additional weight of gear and crew, and thus displacement pushing the boat further down in the water, won’t make a huge difference in the resulting performance under calm conditions.

    This motor has carried HOWDY against a light wind, slight chop and light current of 1 or 2 knots, but the stronger the forces are against the boat, the higher the throttle needed and thus the less range it has. It does perform as advertised at full throttle for an hour. The increase in time the lower the throttle setting is on some exponential curve that’s beyond my brain. I suspect that if conditions were flat calm and there were no current or chop and I was not in any hurry, it would run at very low throttle as advertised for the 5 or 6 hours. But it’s certainly not going to make headway at low throttle settings going against wind, chop and current.

    The current setup that I am testing includes a solar charger and an extra battery. There is a solar panel that can be purchased separately, not through EP Carry (but they have the link/info), that can carry the same easy snap chord attachment. It takes one full moderately sunny day to charge a battery with the solar panel. So in theory, on a cruise the solar charger and extra battery should provide an ongoing supply of power that in theory is seldom needed.

    Hope this helps and I would encourage Joe from EP Carry to weigh in on my answer here for anywhere I may be off track or omitting important information.

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      Linda Grez says:

      Joe here from EP Carry. Developing an outboard is like developing this mount. You go through a lot of options and testing before you’re done – it’s taken us 10 years of development, production and servicing, and listening to get to a mature product. At this point we’ve nailed the optimum design for our first segment; ship to shore – boats under 13 ft and under 600 lb displacement.

      In a larger boat application like the Caledonia, we’re close enough for some but increased need for range and power adds more to consider. While we have excited satisfied customers with larger boats like the Schock Harbor 20, they use the motor just for the marina and to get back when the wind dies. They love the EP Carry for its stowability and no-nonsense simplicity. But some sailors take long treks and want to be able to exceed hull speed for extra power in severe conditions/ loading. If more range is important, we support solar (read below) and a very wide array of batteries. For those who just need more power, we direct these people to our competition. I recommend Torqeedo for up to 5 hp applications, Ray for up to 10 hp applications and Pure Watercraft for high speed applications. I recommend staying away from non-geared and converted gasoline units because most of the efficiency gain of a good electric comes from the large diameter, high pitch prop AND custom gearing to match impedance between battery-motor and water. 3X efficiency improvement means you need 1/3 the battery expense and weight and 1/3 the solar if that’s your thing. It’s a fact that high efficiency systems save $ when you look at the total package cost.

      I have become to believe that very soon there will be no justification for fuel afloat and the early adopters are already in. Ski and fishing boats can operate conventionally with electric now. Cruising boats all have enough footprint to carry sufficient solar for un-limited displacement cruising, and in my opinion, trawlers and larger cruisers have no business exceeding hull speed on our waters because of the wake annoyance and damage to others. To illustrate how solar cruising works, I took a 120 mile trip (Salish 100) last year. You can see how it turned out in my trip report online: https://www.electricpaddle.com/solar-sailing-epcarry.html . The principles demonstrated in this report are not new. But I lay out design and scaling principles that let any size boat conventionally cruise long distances without touching the grid or taking on fuel. Today, this is very exciting stuff for boat geeks. But I’m convinced it will be commonplace for everyone in 10 years. I’m proud to be a part of this transition even though it’s a lot of work, just like the mount.

      • 

        Patrick Daniels says:

        “…and in my opinion, trawlers and larger cruisers have no business exceeding hull speed on our waters because of the wake annoyance and damage to others.”

        Would that more folks held this opinion.

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      Douglas Klaucke says:

      Steve, thanks for your thoughtful response. Since I’ll be doing most of my sailing on the Eggemoggin Reach and neighboring bays, it sounds like the EP Carry should be sufficient to help me get home to Sedgwick harbor when the wind dies and I’m too far, or too tired/lazy, to row all the way back. I look forward to hearing more about the discount that will be available to OCH subscribers.

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        Douglas Klaucke says:

        Joe from EP Carry, thanks for your input, as well.

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  Todd Waffner says:

  I went through the very same process- for a Torqueedo mount. ‘Wanted the mount to be easily removable and to be as unobtrusive as possible but I went the “hang over the side” route”.

  I modeled a bracket in wood to get the geometry right and had a local guy fab it in 3/8″x 3″ stainless steel bar ($200). It goes up and over the gunwale and slots into a couple through bolts with wing nuts. It flexes a tiny bit when accelerating but works fine and what doesn’t bend will break as they say.

  I added a plywood plate below the gunnel as reinforcement. The mounting bolts pass through this plate. Always tough to cut into a finished hull but turned out great.

  It’s still is intrusive to the boat’s good looks but it is removable. And my wife is very happy to have the motor option when the kids are aboard!!

  Batteries are getting so good these days- I trolled for salmon at 3kts for 5 hours last weekend on one battery!

  I’d add a photo if I could.

  Next project is working on a aesthetic way to mount a off the shelf downrigger on the boat or maybe making my own downrigger.

  Interesting comments on the galling of SS. Great video. Thanks!

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  Philip Myer says:

  Steve could you give details of the motor and it’s specs- I have never seen that unit before- Thanks Philip Myer

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    Steve Stone says:

    There’s a link to their website above in Nav Further Philip. We are coordinating with the folks over at EP Carry to offer a special discount for OCH members on this motor soon.

    • 

      William Real says:

      Steve,

      Are you finding that the EP Carry has enough power and range for the Caledonia?

      Thanks again for a great video

      • 

        Steve Stone says:

        Please see answer above.

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  James Hutchinson says:

  Good useful short on design and the considerations it takes to achieve a satisfactory outcome. Thanks

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  Donald Sullivan says:

  Eric, this is an outstanding video showing the design process of something which on the surface is rather simple, but the devil is in the details as we saw. Extremely well done and enjoyable.

  I am a recent Caledonia Yawl builder without an engine . . . so you’ve got me thinking now.

  Don

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  Ralph Wernett says:

  Many years ago I made a swing out bracket attached to an aft frame member on a bank dory to support a 1hp Seagull outboard. I brace the bracket with a bronze rod bent on both ends going form the end of the motor bracket with an oar lock socket flush mounted to the aft oar lock socket of the dory. When not in use the rod pulls out and the bracket swings up and into the boat. Also the bracket was mounter between to cheek blocks with a bolt and wingnut to be removed – but never had a reason to remove it….

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  John Supan says:

  Good educational video on problem solving and fitting to shape, thinking through the loads as well. Very enjoyable. A good contribution to the OCH video library.

  Well done.

  Electric propulsion is the way to go. I use a Torqeedo Travel on my Rhodes 19.

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    Mark Twichell says:

    I loved my Torqueedo Travel 501 until they stopped making that model and wouldn’t help me replace a damaged battery charger. I’ll look at the motor in this excellant video.

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  Dave Dickmeyer says:

  Nice work Eric! I enjoyed watching the whole thought process. The simplest and most elegant solutions take a bit of time and trial and error. But in the end, a great piece of design work!
  Thanks.

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  Francis Kelly says:

  Eric’s solution for the Caledonia is elegant. I faced a similar conumdrum with my 19′ Newfound Trap Skiff and needed a motor mount. Not so easy on an open sail boat. My solution locks the bracket between the inwhale and the Gunwale.
  The knobs with SS threads fasten to the brass inserts passing through the ash inwhale.
  The wood circles insure the motor is always in the same place and less likely to slip.
  Rock solid with the motor weight against the top strake and completely removable.
  /Users/frank/Desktop/motor mount bracket

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  Jeff Patrick says:

  This was very enjoyable to watch. Many who are not used to creating solutions to problems like this are genuinely mystified at how it gets done. Eric’s process is common to many creative folks and it reminds me of advice I once received from a sculpture professor. He said to ‘begin with the first thought and write it down. Because the second thought will not happen until the first is captured.’ I’ve followed this advice ever since and it has never failed to be correct.

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  Dave Simonson says:

  Great application Eric, Could you forward the dimension from waterline to the top of mount. I have a 2 hp. Evinrude outboard that I would be using instead of the electric motor.

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  Ben Fuller says:

  Getting RAN TAN ready for a run to Marshall in a week or so. This distracted me somewhat. Back to work. Suggestion that you might want to add something in the boat, chocks what not to stow the motor when you are not using it as it always will be under foot. You have plenty of room. If you find those wing nuts a nuisance, recommend the aircraft style lock nuts. I suspect that when the mount is on it will stay on.

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    Mark Twichell says:

    Agree that removable mounts tend to be permanent, like in my version for a Bolger Birdwatcher. The external chine on the sheet plywood hull made for easy resting of the mount. Thanks OCH for this great video.

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    Steve Stone says:

    Thanks Ben. I hang on every word and idea you share fyi. Always have. Glad we were able to distract you from an all encompassing prep to head for an island.

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  Thomas Buzzi says:

  Fun video to watch and vicariously enjoy since this is what I often do although much of the time I am fortunate enough to imagine what something should look like and then build it to match my mental image. Well done!

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  Paul Cammaroto says:

  Another Great video , Creative, Inspirational, informative and totally cool. Loved the closing shots as the sunsets on Center Harbor . Well Done Eric and Co.

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  William Real says:

  Great video. I’ve spent many hours daydreaming about how to retrofit a motor mount on my Caledonia without cutting through the hull for a box. This is a nice, clean solution.

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  Bill Saunders says:

  Eric very clearly demonstrates why boatbuilding is such a great way to teach someone how to think their way through a problem. In addition to teaching woodworking skills, that is one of the learning processes emphasized at the NWSWB in Port Hadlock, WA. I particularly liked Eric’s means of creating a flat surface on an angled surface upon which a nut and washer can be seated. A great idea!
  Bill

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  Tom Marshall says:

  Such a beautiful thing to watch logic , skill and aesthetics meld together
  to find practical solutions ! Well done gentlemen !

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  Philip Myer says:

  Motor off into the sunset Steve- great in situ design and problem solving from Eric.

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  Matt Clouse says:

  So cool. I have a CY with a well and selected an epropulsion motor last Fall at the Annapolis boat show. The epaddle has such a nice compact design and it sure would be nice to be able to tilt the motor up like Howdy can, which my well-mount obviously prevents. Either way, it’s nice to scoot along quietly and be able to have a conversation.

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  Steve Sandahl says:

  This is an absolutely brilliant functional project that you’ve narrated and presented to OCH members, well done keep up the great work.